“God cannot be God without man,” Francis the Liberal tells us. But is this true? Does God really need man?
Of course not.
God is necessary being Who is every perfection to an infinite degree. To assert that God needs any created thing is to insinuate that He is not God.
But why did God create us if He does not need us? Because God is infinite goodness, and goodness tends to diffuse itself. God created man that he may share in God’s happiness.
When a man who is supposed to be God’s visible representative tells the world that God cannot be God without man, he has blasphemed. But not only has Francis committed another grave sin of blasphemy, he has also scandalized the entire world by his sins. It is no hyperbole to say that Francis the Liberal has wrought more evil than any other person on earth. Truly, this is a man who proudly takes his place next to Judas as a most terrible traitor.
It certainly seems that one could apply to Francis the words Our Lord directed to Judas. It would be better for him if he had never been born.
TomNaegeleBlogs 
And the lengths novus ordo friends go to explain away such blasphemy– no, he meant that we know God through His creation, is the most frequent response. If he meant that he would have said that, wouldnt he? Its funny how these liberals mocked and rejected George w bush for all his mis-speaks, a man who was for a short time responsible for their material good, but will excoriate anyone who calls out Judas for being Judas.
Why do you believe that he is God’s visible representative?
Personally, I don’t. But that’s what a pope is supposed to be.
Why do you believe a pope is supposed to be God’s visible representative?
Because Christ came to earth in order to establish His Church, and He personally placed the first pope at the head of His Church as His visible representative.
Based on what evidence do you believe that to be true? The Bible doesn’t mention this anywhere and in Matthew 16:18 there isn’t claims to this either.
Anon– if you wont believe Scripture, you wont believe the Fathers of the first 2 centuries, will you? Your objections remind me of Luke 16:
19 19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen: and feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And there was a certain beggar, by name Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table; and no one did give him: moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried by the Angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:
24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy life-time, and likewise Lazareth evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.
27 And he said: Then, Father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren, that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 But he said: No, father Abraham; but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe if one rise again from the dead.
Your comments have nothing to do with why you believe a pope is required, but if you are going to quote scripture, how do you decide which scripture you hold as truth?
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Why do you believe a Pope is required? Why do you believe there is any mediator besides Jesus?
Why do you believe Catholicism to be the only true religion?
If you were raised, Islam would you believe different?
How would you have the chance to know the true religion as Catholicism if it is the only true religion?
Why are others less fortunate and you were raised in the perfect religion?
Rather than address each individual question, it seems more effective to simply make a few points.
God is eternal justice. He can do nothing which is not just, and that means there is no such thing as luck. Justice dictates that God could not create a soul without giving it the choice to obtain eternal life. Perhaps we could say some are “less-fortunate,” but even still God gives them the opportunity to share in His happiness by gaining heaven.
Just as there is only one God, there can only be one truth. Two contradictory religions cannot possibly both be true. There must be only one true religion which leads to the one true God. Christ came to establish this one true religion, and I maintain that what He established was Catholicism. Why? A simple answer is that only Catholicism dates back to the time of Christ. But a better answer is given by examining the teachings of Catholicism and comparing them with the teachings of Christ. Any honest soul will find them to be one and the same.
Perhaps you will say that what Christ established was simply His teachings contained in the Bible. Perhaps you will say that what we must follow is simply those teachings. But surely you can see the myriad problems with this. First of all, where did the Bible come from? Who decided what books were actually divinely-inspired? Who interprets the teachings contained therein? Doesn’t even the Bible itself say that the unlearned wrest these things to their own destruction? How can the Holy Ghost be leading all readers of Sacred Scripture, when nearly all readers arrive at contrary conclusions? Can God contradict Himself? Does not the Spirit of Truth lead us to only one truth? Can there be more than one truth? Also, who protects and preserves the Bible? Who ensures its authenticity? How do we know which edition and translation are correct?
All of these questions and more point to the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true religion established by the one true God-made-man. Once this fact is accepted, the rest falls into place.
I understand you think you are making good points, but they honestly aren’t valid in all scenarios.
The teaching of Catholicism and the teachings of Christ are not the same. Where in the Bible is the Marian doctrine established?
How can the Holy Ghost be leading all readers of Sacred Scripture, when nearly all readers arrive at contrary conclusions?
Maybe it’s Satan leading the readers to contrary conclusions, but this question you asked can’t even be answered by a Catholic, because that religion in itself is always changing.
If you are honest with yourself and others who may read this then you would say that the reason you are Catholic is that you were raised Catholic. It was presented to you as truth and that’s what you are. For a Muslim, it is presented to them as truth as well as thousands of other religions in the world.
If Catholicism is the only correct religion, then why has it changed over the last 2,000 years to adjust to whatever beliefs they want?
The Council of Trent, Councils of Nicaea, Councils of Constanipole, and dozens of others. Pope after Pope changes rules to meet whatever they would like.
I grew up Catholic myself and was told that I wasn’t allowed to read the Bible for myself because I couldn’t understand the word of God.
If the Catechism of The Catholic Church is so authentic, then why is it always changing? If it is authentic then it shouldn’t change.
The Bible is the Word of God and it doesn’t change. The same is true today in the Bible as it was 2000+ years ago.
The early Catholic church murdered people who weren’t Catholic. They excommunicated people.
Do you believe in the Catechism? Do you believe you can become God because the Catechism tells us we can in Paragraph 460? (“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”)
I don’t believe I can become God and I do not believe I will ever be God. I believe God is 3 persons and that God is the Supreme Being.
Do you believe in sacramentals? If I hate everybody in the world and wear a brown scapular when I die, will I automatically go to Heaven? If you believe in them, then why didn’t they exist until the 12th century?
If you don’t follow the Pope, then when did you stop following the Pope? Most Traditional Catholics would say Vatican II, but do you think all popes beforehand were holy? What about Pope Innocent VIII? He drank the blood of three 10-year-old boys to have a blood transfusion because he believed that it would give him younger life. (They all died). This is one story of over 260 different popes.
I actually agree with the post that the Pope is a blasphemer. He recently said that the Big Bang theory is true for our existence. That’s a completely different subject that Christians don’t even agree on.
According to God’s word the Bible, everybody has sinned. And the translation of the Bible doesn’t really matter to me. We can use the Douay-Rheims, The King James, The ESV, The NIV, The ASV, The NKJV or many others. The basic context of all of them is the same regardless of whether or not somebody wants to translate it and say they are different. They all come from the original Hebrew and Greek so unless we are fluent in those languages ourselves, we can not hold claims to the legitimacy of the accuracy of the translations like the Douay-Rheims claims in the Preface about St. Jerome.
I do not think all Popes are wrong, but the corruption has been around for decades. The point I’m failing to make is that I believe the only thing needed is God. No Pope. No Catholic Church. No Religion. I believe we go directly to Jesus Christ as he clearly tells us in the Bible. I do believe there is only one truth in the world when it comes to the creation of this world and how to get into the Kingdom of God. The answer is clear in the Word of God.
I really like the discussion we have going here. (added my name)
Thanks for adding your name, Mr. Williams. You are a great thinker and I too enjoy our discussion.
You say that the teachings of Catholicism and the teachings of Christ are not the same, but what exactly are the teachings of Christ? Do you maintain that they are contained exclusively in the Bible? If yes, you have quite a problem on your hands. For after Christ’s Resurrection from the grave, He remained on earth for forty days instructing His disciples. Surely, these last forty days were filled with His most important teachings since they were His final teachings. But where in the Bible are all of these teachings!? Scan the Gospels, and you will not find them. All of Christ’s teachings are not contained in the Bible. They are contained in His Church, and not one of His Church’s teachings contradicts His own teachings in the Bible.
I’m very glad that we agree Satan is leading readers of Scripture to contrary conclusions. This means that we both agree there is only one truth, just as there is only one God. But let’s explore a little thought exercise here. You read the passage from Timothy and come to the conclusion that the office of the papacy is contrary to Biblical teaching. I read the same passage and come to the opposite conclusion. Now one of us is being duped by Satan, correct? But how do we determine which one!? Shall we go through hours and hours of the deepest intellectual debate to discern who’s interpretation is true, and who’s is false? If so, where does that leave those who are not capable of such debate? Do you really trust the darkened human intellect enough to come to a perfect and true conclusion for every supernatural mystery contained in Sacred Scripture? Of course not. There must be an infallible teacher of men. This teacher must be visible in order that our disagreement over Timothy can be settled. If Christ established no visible and infallible teacher, He established a recipe for disaster. Luther himself said that private interpretation leads to as many creeds as there are heads.
As far as Catholicism changing, it doesn’t. It does grow and mature as it becomes more complex, but its essential nature never changes. Would you say the mustard seed changes as it becomes a great tree? It doesn’t change–it grows. You may find some contradictions between modernist Catholics and traditional Catholics, but that is only because modernists are not really Catholic. What we have here is a case of stolen identity. If you explore the teachings of Traditional Catholics, you will find them to be absolutely identical to those given by Christ and passed down throughout two thousand years of history. The councils of the church do not change her teachings, they clarify and define them. Popes do not “change the rules,” they also clarify and define them. I’m afraid your concept of the papacy is based upon the recent modernist “popes.” They do attempt to change the rules, but what power do they have to do so? All of the popes combined have not one iota of power to contradict Catholic Tradition. If they proclaim something contrary to Catholic Tradition, that proclamation is by its very nature null and void.
I am honest with myself and of course the reason I am a Catholic is because I was raised a Catholic. Of course the reason that most Islamists follow Islam is because they were raised to do so. But what is your point? We’ve already established that God is eternal justice and must present every created soul with the opportunity to obtain Everlasting Life. Catholicism is the one and only true religion, and the Catholic Church is the only means of salvation. But members of other religions can belong to the soul of the Catholic Church while not belonging to her body. This is really not all that surprising when we again consider that God is eternal justice. If one is born into the Muslim religion, God does not hold that against him. God sees all things, and He knows to what degree a person loves the truth. If there is a real love for truth, God rewards that love by admitting that person to the soul of His Church. God knows that such a soul would accept the truth if it was presented to him, and that is enough for God. So, conceivably, a Muslim could live his entire life as a Muslim and still obtain heaven because God knows he would accept the true religion if it was presented to him. This is not a new teaching, as it is contained in the Bible and in two-thousand years of Catholic Tradition.
I’m afraid you did not grow up as Traditional Catholic, or the reading of the Bible would be encouraged. There are many graces and indulges granted to those who read Sacred Scripture, and the church places a multitude of Biblical passages before her children in every single aspect of her liturgy. What real Catholics teach is this: read the Bible as often as you desire, but never attempt to interpret it for yourself. Always submit your judgment to the infallible voice of Christ’s Church. The early Catholic Church never murdered people who weren’t Catholic. They did excommunicate people, and rightly so, but they never murdered anyone.
I do believe in the Catechism, and I’m not sure which edition you pulled that quote from. If it’s a modernist edition, that explains the problem. If it’s Traditional, surely there’s an explanation for the quote. Of course none of us believe that we can become God. All Catholics repeat with St. Michael, “Who is like God?” We only believe that we can become like God in the sense that we can partake of and enjoy with Him His happiness. Any person with even a tad of honesty will not accuse the Traditional Catholic Church of believing that humans can become God. Every single one of her teachings is based on the fact that man can accomplish nothing on his own, because he is mere dust.
I do believe in sacramentals, but I’m afraid you have an incomplete understanding of how they function. A brown scapular does not grant you the right to enter heaven regardless of your sins. If you practice the Catholic religion while wearing the brown scapular, however, you can be absolutely certain that you will be saved. Sacramentals are simply means of increasing devotion. For example, nearly everyone has pictures of their loved ones placed throughout their home. Why? Because these people are dear to them, and they wish to think of them often. Such thoughts are happy thoughts which make life more pleasant. Sacramentals have the same effect. They remind us of heavenly things and direct our thoughts to the only true source of happiness, God. Oh, and sacramentals existed well before the 12th century.
Every Traditional Catholic will disobey every command that is contrary to Catholic Tradition. We stop following the pope when he stops following Catholic Tradition. Of course I don’t think all popes before Vatican II were holy, but not all of Christ’s own apostles were holy! If Christ chose one traitor out of His twelve, I would expect a similar ratio for His popes. Just because a man is elected pope does not mean he is automatically holy. Also, just because a man is selected as one of Christ’s apostles does mean he is automatically holy. After all, look at the first pope and first apostle, St Peter! He committed one of the worst sins in the history of mankind by cursing and swearing and denying the man he knew to be God in front of crowds of his fellow man. Such scandal he gave that night! How weak and miserable was poor Peter on that wretched night! Surely we expect at least some of his successors to occasionally fall into similar sins. After all, Peter was still this weak after learning directly from Christ Himself. How can we expect his successors to be better than him? The miracle of it all is that this poor and wretched Peter was raised by the power of God’s grace to become the greatest of men. He who could not muster up the courage to stand by his accused savior somehow gained the courage to boldly pronounce Him in front of the entire world only a few short days later. He willingly gave his life up in defense of the Lord he couldn’t even acknowledge a short time before. This is what we expect from popes. Sins and scandals, yes, occasionally. But by and large, the power of God’s grace will work miracles in His beloved representatives.
You say the corruption in popes has been around for decades, and I agree. Vatican II changes have been around for decades. The point you are trying to make is against even the Bible itself. Did not Christ tell the lepers to show themselves to the priest? Did not Christ constantly make use of visible signs? Man is a material creature, and he needs material means. If one simply looks around him, everything he sees can be viewed as a kind of metaphor for God. The love of parents for their children? It’s meant to give us a glimpse into God’s relationship with His children. The beauty of creation? It’s meant to give us a glimpse into the beauty of God’s mind. We are material beings, and we need these material means. After all, did not Christ make Himself visible and material for our sake? Why could He not just enlighten our hearts with His teachings, rather than coming all the way to earth and assuming our human nature? It’s because He knows we need visible and material means. All of those means are contained exclusively within the One, True, Holy, Apostolic, Visible, and Infallible Traditional Catholic Church.
So you don’t have to assume anymore, I’ll tell you the truth. I did grow up Traditional Catholic. I went to a Catholic school when I was younger, called St. Gertrudes. I don’t remember much about it, but I remember the school was on a hill. There was Father Jenkins and Father Greenwell there at the time, I believe. I also went to another Catholic Church growing up with the same name where there was Father (or Bishop) Dolan.
I’m not fluent in anything, but I do know a lot of Teaching of the Catholic Church from both angles. I originally was going to write a book explaining how Traditional Catholics was the only true religion in the world and to teach others the truth.
After 10 years of research, I couldn’t do it because the more I researched, the more I knew the truth was false.
I know you’re very intelligent. You are smarter than I will ever be. It is clear to see this in your writing. You are well read, but one thing that is also noticeable is it appears you are biased. You will say let’s look at another point in many of your replies to readers, but it looks like you’ve not truly considered the opposite yourself.
I understand sacramentals very well actually. I’ve researched them various times. I even have Ann Ball’s book on Catholic Sacramentals.
When I was Catholic, my favorite Sacramental was the Five-Fold Scapular. I would wear it daily and when it broke, I placed it in my book bag and carried it around to school.
But with sacramentals, once we start studying them, we see that there are quite a few of acclaimed saints that have brought these to our attention, centuries after the Apostles were on earth. I understand the brown scapular very well. My illustration of it was simply just to ask if you believed in it in the ways I claimed and the answer is yes after your response. I failed to mention following Catholic tradition part, but that (to me) was self-explanatory since nobody outside of Catholic Tradition would know anything about Sacramentals. I also wasn’t saying that all sacramentals came around in the 12th century so if you believe that, then I wasn’t clear in typing.
Even the history of the Brown Scapular changed once it was first recognized. From St. Simon to PopeXXII to Pope Pius XI to Pope Paul V to Pope Pius X. If there is only one truth, why is the Brown Scapular needed? If it’s not needed, why is it secret so that only certain people can know about it to experience eternal life while falling Catholic Teachings? Also if you follow Catholic teaching, why is it needed anyway if you should be destined for Heaven based on good works through the teaching?
The Catechism I pulled from may be modern. I’m unsure, but it’s an entire book. I don’t believe it’s in The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, but I’ll have to look in there to see myself. It is in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” It’s revised under Pope John Paul II, so I understand that a Traditional wouldn’t follow it. But that’s beside the point. You just said that even if it is in a Catechism that is recognized by the Traditional Catholics, it must have an explanation. What if it doesn’t have an explanation? What if it clearly says that after I pointed it out? How do you determine whether to believe it or not? These are the things that I started noticing outside of God’s inspired word and realized are man-made. They aren’t authentic and are not what Jesus was all about.
This transitions to the other point you made. Yes, I believe exactly what you believe with the Crucifixion, resurrections, ascension, etc. I believe there were 500 eye witnesses or maybe even more. With that said, a lot of that is in the Bible. I absolutely love the books of James, John, Acts, and in Fact, everything by Saint Paul. I actually use a lot of history outside of the Bible to speak with Atheists. They claim the Bible is fake and God doesn’t exist.
I use cases such as Thallus, Tacitus, and Josephus to talk about eyewitness accounts outside of the Bible with them. None of that explains the Marian doctrine. I’ve researched it plenty of times and as much as I think Mary was a great woman, I can’t say that she is supposed to be honored the way Catholics claim to be. I believe the Word of God is simple to understand. Jesus tells us himself, that the Bible is so simple a child can understand. If we follow Catholic Doctrine, it get’s complicated. It makes me think of Hebrews 13:9.
There are a lot of points that we both keep making and even as much as I believe in the ones I say I do, I don’t feel like I’m going to bend yours. I used to think like you very much so. I don’t believe I’m bent by Satan. I believe that Satan has corrupted the Catholic church. In itself that is easy to see. You stated yourself that not all popes elected are Holy. If the Holy Ghost is inspiring the Papacy, how can they get it wrong? If they can get the election of the holiest man in the world wrong, then how do we know that they were right in everything else.
You stated that the councils do not change their teachings, they just clarify them. That’s not true though. In either the Council of Trent or the Council of Lyon, that’s when Purgatory was declared. I’d have to read up on them. The documentation for each is hundreds of pages long and I haven’t read one in a couple years. From what I remember, The Council of Trent, Lyon, Florence, and Nicaea were the most interesting to me.
There is plenty of history of Catholics murdering Protestants hundreds of years ago, so if you don’t believe that then once you start looking into it more you may be shocked. I’m not sure if my next sentence is still done traditionally or if it’s just modern Catholics, but they allow people to pay for masses, to gain indulgences, to allow people to get out of Purgatory, to be healed, and so much more.
Catholicism is a very complicated religion and to be inspired by the Son of God, seems to be a disgrace towards the holiness of Christ.
I can’t get around, why we should confess our sins to a priest, bishop, cardinal, pope, etc instead of going directly to God ourselves.
Based on our discussions to what you know of me, do you think I would go to Hell in your eyes? I pray at least a few hours a day to God through Christ. I read my Bible daily. I go to church on Sundays. I tithe monthly. I donate thousands of dollars each year to charities. I confess my sins to God directly, but I haven’t been to confession in probably 20 years. I don’t believe we should pray to Mary, and I believe the only way to Heaven is through Christ. I’m just curious of your answer since you stated that a Muslim who never had the opportunity to know the true religion (Catholic) will have the chance to enter the kingdom of God if they do well (good works). So they may believe that they are going to get 72 virgins their entire life, not know Jesus Christ and still go to Heaven based on your understanding of God’s word? But me, who understands it has less of a chance?
Sorry about the late reply– I’ve actually been out of town on a retreat with Father Jenkins and Greenwell. If I may ask, why did you leave the Church? Was it solely because of the research done for your book?
As far as my opinion on your salvation, that would be a rather silly speculation. Man can only judge the exterior action while God weighs the interior intention. Bad exterior actions don’t necessarily lead a soul to hell if he has good interior intentions. God is infinite justice, so no matter what we know we’ll each get what we deserve.
Saying I left the church is implying that the Catholic church is the authentic church for Christ. I didn’t leave the church. I still attend church. I don’t consider myself, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jew, a Pentecostal, etc. I am a Christian.
I stopped attending Catholic churches once I realized they weren’t true and made things up as they go. They aren’t the only churches that do this. there are thousands of denominations. I don’t fault the people in the churches either because they are accustomed to believing what they were raised. This is truly the definition of blind faith. Believing in something without asking questions, regardless if you are a Christian, Atheist, Catholic, Muslim, Jew, etc.
I’ve talked to priests before and they told me to not ask questions. I’ve researched things that are clear history and they deny it is true even though it is documented clearly. The Catholic church made up the Marian doctrine, they invented sacramentals, they invented Purgatory. (even if people want to say it is in Maccabees, it is not.) If we look at this like a cold case we can see that there is too much evidence that is made up. There are hundreds of accounts if not thousands of accounts where the Catholic church murdered people, takes peoples money to pay to have their sins purged, masses for the dead.
Salvation is through Christ alone. The Bible is clear about this dozens of times in the new testament. Nicodemus even has a conversation with Jesus about it. You can’t deny that. It is in God’s word. The question you should ask yourself is why you believe the made up stuff outside of God’s word.
Have you ever seen What Catholics Believe on YouTube? I think you’d appreciate it. Father Jenkins and I answer every question that’s ever been asked.
I’ve heard about it, but never watched it. I will give it a shot because I would love to hear real answers that explain their ideas of thinking without being biased, so I hope I can see that there.
Yes, please do. I think you’ll be surprised. If you aren’t impressed, please send me an email with whatever questions you’d like to pose to Father Jenkins. I’ll simply read your email verbatim and require from him an unbiased response.
So far I’m not impressed because you’ve failed to answer lots of questions above. You just sweep them under the rug and stick to what you know from when you grew up. In order to understand and form unbiased opinions, you have to completely look at each side impartially. Until you do that, you will continue to defend only the limitations of what you are willing to know. I used to do the same thing, but now I know all the truth. Right now you only know part of the truth. When you start questioning Father Jenkins and realize that he is a human, nobody superior, and he doesn’t have all the answers – only God does – then you will start to see the entire truth. With all that said, I am far from perfect, but I can argue both sides. You are truly living by blind faith. Believing in something without questioning it. If you questioned it, then you would have real answers to questions I’ve asked above, but instead, you’ve denied some things from being true when it is documented in history.
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the light. Only through him, will you gain the Father. – not through a priest and not through Mary.
Oh, okay. Well I appreciate your comments.
@Tom,
It has been over a year. Have you found answers to the questions asked above?